仲代：そうですね。あの、私が初めてこの『バリモア (原作: William Luce) 』っていう本を、に、出会ったのは、ええと、年月で言うと、1999年に『セールスマンの死 (原作者: Arthur Miller) 』の版権をいただきまして、いただきたくて、あの、原作者 (Arthur Miller) 、ええ、に会いに行ったときにですね、ええ、ニューヨークに。そのときにある人から「仲代さん、晩年になったら、これ、やったらどうですか」って、もらったのが、この『バリモア』という本の…、所謂、英語版ですけど…。日本で言うと、誰だろう？すごい、最高の人気のあった、芸のすごく巧かった人が、実は、こんなに人間的だったんですよ、と。で、その没落のところを、自分で自嘲しながら、せせら笑って生きて行ってるんですよ、って言うところに、アメリカでは、素晴らしい俳優が…「え、実像はこうだったの？あれは虚像だったの？」と、ね。それが一つのこの作品のアメリカにおける評判になったわけですけど…。日本で演 (や) ると、バリモアという人は、ほとんど知りませんから、だから私の芝居の中でそれを説明して行くしか手はないんで…。そういうハンデキャップは慥かにあると思いますけど…。「ああ、俳優っていうのはこういうもんなんだ」と…。オレも自分で俳優やりながら、ジョン・バリモアさんの末路…、哀しいっていう意味じゃなくてね、たとえば私も八十一歳になりますけど、もうそろそろですよ、現役の俳優としてはね。いや、皆「いやいや、そんなことはないでしょ」と言うけれど、それはそれ、人間の宿命というか、やっぱり高く評価が上がったものは落ちてくる、特に役者は。俳優っていうものはそういういうことだと思うし…。そこがとても面白くて、だから、二十年近く、暖めていた作品なんで…。や、まあ、八十一歳になって、とても難しいですけど。「よし、最後の挑戦だ」と、一人芝居を、今やろうとしているところですけれども…。
仲代： (ジョン・バリモアは、シェークスピア劇の名優として、歴史に名を残した人です。) 私も、シェイクスピアを随分やってきましたし、リチャード三世も、ハムレットもやった。それはまあ、（この）劇中にも出てくるわけですけれども…。それでまあ、映画の方も主演クラスでやってきた、という、流れとしては、 (ジョン・バリモアと私は）経歴としては似通っているところがあるんですけれどもね。ジョン・バリモア・様、は、ですね、四度結婚しているんですね。四度結婚して四度離婚しているわけだから。私は一度しかしてませんから…。まあ、その点は違いますけれども。
インタビュア： (仲代さんは、ジョン・バリモアよりその点では) 品行方正ということですね。
仲代： そうですねえ（笑）。おいこら、バリモア！（笑）… 本当は、これバリモアさん (が主人公のお芝居なわけ) ですけれども、うん、『達也』っていう (私が主人公の) 芝居 (というふうに見ていただいても、それはそれ) でも、いいかな、っと。
仲代： その、無名塾の今までの芝居では、皆ねえ、若い人たちと一緒に、もう、多いときには三十人くらい出て芝居をやりましたよね。お互いに、その、演技を仕合うわけだから…、そこには、何て言うのかな…、「躁（そう）」、いい意味での「躁」、いい意味での「賑やかさ」、で、芝居って持って行くよね。チームワークねえ。ただ、オレ一人だし、松崎 (謙二氏・俳優、無名塾所属) が声で助けてくれはするけれども、実を言うと「ああ、六十二年やってて、最も心細い」ですよ。ええ。
仲代： 所謂、芝居ってさ、ベテランだから巧い、っていうことないんですよ。新人だから下手ってこともないんですよ。ベテランは新人のもつ鮮度、新鮮度、これがやっぱり一番欲しいんだな。だって『バリモア』って、僕、生まれて初めてやるわけでしょ。これ、新人と同じですよ。その代わりに鮮度は落ちてるわけだな。だから非常に、ベテランだろうと、新人だろうと、役者って、そら、技ってものは磨かなけりゃいけない。お客さんにわかってもらわなけりゃいけないけれども、私は無名塾をやって四十年になりますけれど、皆に、若い人たちに劣るのは、やっぱり「鮮度」ですよ。だから、皆と同じような、新人のつもりの鮮度、それを… でも「抽出 (ひきだし)」っていうのはどうしても出ちゃうんだな、それは、どうしても、止めようと思っても。だから、それは仕様がないにしても、なるたけ「悪い経験度」というものを止めようと思ってるんですよ。
仲代：自分が出来ることは、運とか不運とかはあるけれども、自分ができることは努力することですよ。人の十倍、二十倍、努力することだよね。役者としての生き方…。だから、まあ、若しくは、…ええと、もしもオレは次世代に一言、言いたいんなら…「『生きる』ってことは何だ」、ということを、自分に与えられる、たとえば、役者っていう商売に入り込んだらば、その、役者として死ぬまでに、どうにか全うして、それが、あの、その、「スターになれ」とか、「カネ稼げ」っていう意味じゃないよ。(そういう) 意味じゃなくて、役者として、生き方は「オレは、こう生きたいんだ」というものをね、ええ、受け身の商売ではありながら… (持っていないとね…) 、そういうものを (自分の中から) 全部消しちゃ (って、全くの受け身で行くような生き方になってしま) うと、(役者として「オレはこう生きる」という、その重心を失うわけで、それは単に、人から言われたことを言われたとおりにして、その場や人生を「しのぎ続ける」ための処世術、受け身なだけの)「ツマラない商売」になっちゃうんじゃないかなあ、と…思いますけれどもね…、うん。
仲代： まあ、あの、無名塾も始まって、四十年になって、いろんな俳優さん、素晴らしい俳優さん、いろいろ巣立ってます。えー、これから役者になりたいんであれば、やっぱり、うん、…… 単なる「タレント」と呼ばれるような、もし無名塾に入って来たらば、そうじゃなくて、やっぱり基礎的なものを三年間、びっちり勉強してですね、プロの、「『プロの俳優になる』ためにはどうしたらいいか」ということを…、考えてもらいたいですね。
Audio (Takashi) typing and interpolating
無名塾公演 2014 「バリモア」
Interviewer: This act ‘BARRYMORE’ premieres in Japan this time. You create it and play the role in it first, Mr Nakadai. Let us hear the episode that you met this playwright at first.
Nakadai: Well, I first met this playwright, ‘BARRYMORE’ when I went to New York City, give its date, it was in 1999. The main destination of the trip was to get permission, well, no …, to bargain with Mr Arthur Miller about receiving permission of his drama ‘Death of a Salesman’ that I aspired for the staging this act in Japan from him. At that time, a man said to me ‘… And now, Mr Nakadai. I know it’s sudden, but … long afterward, when you will be in latter days of your life, you will perform this act, won’t you? I recommend.’ And he handed an English playwright to me. The playwright is nothing short of this ‘BARRYMORE’, English version. Then I read this the minute that I was brought under the spell of this act. In my head I said that if he was Japanese, who he is or who he was. But I could not come to mind the case who satisfied the requirement in Japanese theater world. I read the playwright, now, I give you its outline: John Barrymore was born with theatrical genes. He was the number one actor who dominated the theater world in New York. He got stunning, extraordinary popularity in U.S. showbiz world. He coined money and splurge on with being a siege of a bevy of supreme pretty and/or beautiful women. He was a golden boy and dazzlingly openhearted, handsome, goodwillie nice guy, yes, he had a personal magnetism. Though, in fact, on the flip side, he had a lot of human weaknesses at a time… and at last, he ruined his career. Then he survived in his ruin of the theater showbiz world with sneering and smirking at himself… U.S. People know he was one of the special person who translated dream to into reality, though they were informed that he had the ordinary personal magnetism by this drama. It caused the U.S. audience a sensation. People retraced Barrymore’s life with this act, and said ‘Oh, we saw and believed in him as an idle, but it was a crafted virtual image, a composite character … he was not such a persona in real life …’ They looked back ‘a person, John Barrymore’ in amazement again and this playwright ‘Barrymore’ became widely popular in the United States. By the way, I plan to perform this play in Japan, I encounter a stumbling block that Japanese people don’t know very little about John Barrymore. So I have to account for him in terms of my performance on my stage this time. It is the only way to deliver about him to the Japanese audience. Well, I have to overcome this handicap over a finite period of time on my stage. I want to deliver ‘What is the actor?’ and ‘What Barrymore wanted to do in his life’ to the audience the late period of a predominated actor’s life, sunset of John Barrymore’s’ life through my performing . I am also an actor as Barrymore, so I have a deep sense of empathy for his the ‘last days’. I don’t get depressed and sad to know and think about his wretched last. I interest in that’s the way an actor’s life is and an actor meets own end. Because I turn 81 this year, I can feel I have already been in the last days as an actor on the active stage as same as Barrymore in this playwright. People say in chorus ‘Mr Nakadai, the fat lady does not ready to sing yet, on the contrary, everyone says there are not any fat ladies to be seen around you and us, you know?’ I am glad to be surrounded by honey men and those who think about me. It is all well and good, in addition, thanks to them. However I am saying it in different sphere. A man has earned tribute, he loses his reputation with his aging. It deserves his fate that he can’t get by with avoiding. It especially goes for actors. That’s the way it goes. The successful actors all go there to the last man. So, I have been this playwright in gestation for nearly two decades. Well, at any hand, this playwright is too hard to perform for an 81 years’ old man. Though I have to be an actor with my audience, before I am just a solitary old man. I already decided to act ‘BARRYMORE’, and I obligate myself that this perform is the last challenge of my act in my life as an actor. And now I am just about to perform this mono-drama ‘BARRYMORE’.
Interviewer: I think that you and John Barrymore have common points as the successful actor. How do you think the similar point between you and Barrymore?
Nakadai: John Barrymore was a great actor on the Shakespean leading role, and he became a history maker and a personage of importance in the U.S. theater world. I also played a lot of starring roles on Shakespeare plays. And I also headed the cast of ‘King Richard the third’, ‘Hamlet’ and so on. The playwright ‘BARRYMORE’ includes the scenes of Shakespeare plays, so I will act them. Well, and Barrymore was not only just the great lead of Shakespeare plays, he also played as one of central leading characters in movies. And I have done, too. So, that’s it, as the actor, I think those are the similar points between John Barrymore and I. Well, however, on private spheres of life, we have a crucial difference! He married four times and split up and parted in life four times ! I married once and I was bereaved of my irreplaceable wife. This point is the key difference between us …
Interviewer: In that respect, you are more well-deported than John Barrymore, aren’t you?
Nakadai: Oh, year … Hey, hey, John! … Do not go so far! … (laughing) … On this act ‘BARRYMORE’, of course, the persona is John Barrymore. However, I think I am all right to be seen as the story of “Tatsuya Nakadai’s last days” by my audience …
Telop: Let us hear the differences between the pageant by Mumeijyuku and mono-drama for you?
Nakadai: I used to act the pageant by Mumeijyuku and with the fresh bloods … In a case, thirty actors and actresses took turns at performing on the same stage at a time … and playacted each other … there was the … I cannot think of the proper words to say … ‘manic state’… or ‘razzle-dazzle’ or ‘en-lively’ … of course, I use these mean in a welcomed and good sense … it is one of theatrical approaches that draw the focus of audience onto the stage with this ‘en-lively’ … Yep, or put it another word … yep, ‘team-work’ … same but different … not exactly, but similarly … Nevertheless, “BARRYMORE” is the mono-drama, so I have to put on one-man performance from the first to the last scene and the action. Well, Mr Kenji Matsuzaki, he will aid me by his declamation as the reciter on this stage… To tell you the truth … I feel the highest lonely and uneasy … for my 62 years’ actor life, stage life. … yes…
Telop: How about your own act?
Nakadai: I could say, an actor who gives a wonderful performance is not always the old stager with many years of experience in acting. Or to put it another way, an actor who put on poor and sorrow performance is not always the unknown new blood. Old stager always wants the freshness that the new face has. ‘Freshness’ is the best of everything that every seasoned stager wants. Because every actors both veterans and new men challenge the new stage every time unexceptionally. Like the rest, I play ‘BARRYMORE’ not before in my life. Seen in this light, I am an actor as same as a fresher at all. So, in comparison with the fresher, I have no advantage over them. Yes, I get old. As above, the old stager are inferior to new men in the quality of ‘freshness’, so they always have to overcome their handicap of losing freshness. Generally, only the way of the overcoming method is ‘achieving mastery of the techniques of the act individually’ and he who has an art of act, has everywhere a part on the stage and make a living. The actor have to hone his skills continuously while he has been and lived as an actor. Of course, the art of stager is fundamental to get the audience to come across, that’s go out without saying. Anyway, I have headed the team of actors and actresses, as Mumeijyuki for forty years, though, as an old stager, I am always inferior to the new man in ‘freshness’ and its quality. So, I have to get ‘freshness ‘ on this stage for looking to my laurels. That’s easy to say, when it comes to a showdown, miserably and unconsciously, I find I act with the longstanding patterns. It is not fresh… The audience see it a mile off and it cannot touch the heart of them … So I try to set the target for stopping to use such ‘old-fashioned’ staging techniques. Though it is always just a non binding-target in my case …
Telop: Do you have the mental attitude or intentions to playact ?
Nakadai: That’s just ‘looking at the persona of the casting role’, it all comes down to the fact that the actor have to look at his casting role. What kind of person he is? What character he has? What’s going through his head? Yep, the actor have to be conscious of acting the persona just he playacts. Because the actor is not the persona. So the actor always have to infer the inner thinking of persona. What does he think and react to such situation with his character and ability? That’s just it. Yep, I playact the ‘other persona’, I live life as ‘other character’ on the stage. I do not playact as ‘Nakadai Tatsuya’, but ‘a some one’ through my body on the stage. If some one lives some one’s own life, he have to have the body. What do you expect? Though we, actors have to playact this consciously, how to forget about this and to get right into his role on the stage. Yep, I would like to forget this sort of actor’s thinking there, to playact with having attitude down and vogue there without action methods that acquired the rules of conduct in my actor’s life without knowing for many many years.
Telop: How do you think about the actor job ?
Nakadai: I view the actor job as the ‘dilettante’, the ‘fancier’. So his life looks like the ‘gambler’ without winning or losing. It means ‘a man who has the pursuit to seize the day and to turn his fancy into his career’. He keeps to be free from irritating properties in daily life. He does not feel the pleasure of enterprise for sustained moneymaking and lure of cash. Yes, he does not infrequently become the Epicurean. He always feels empty inside and something is missing, meanwhile, fortunately, if he get offers the casting roles constantly, he makes a precarious living with his fancy. However, the actor lives his life in the law of supply and demand of the casting market, if he musters his motivation to become a great actor and follow through with this attitude, the casting market does not want him, his efforts will prove futile at all. So, there is nothing the actor can do but sit it out for and patiently wait out the offer from the casting market with standing tall through the continued difficult situations. They are the worldly people who make a wish for astonishing the world at some future day and go cruising in order to get by with the same world. The actor is not the artist in the true sense of the term. Because he lives only in the casting order market. Therefore, the actor has no one but himself to turn on. So he is a lonely sole proprietor. Yes, the actor is just the moratorium who waits for offers from the casting order market, not the artist.
Telop: Please send ‘the freshers who goes in for the stage’ a message.
Nakadai: The actor is always subject to chance factors. Generally we say ‘somebody up there loves or hates you’. though, One thing’s for sure. ‘The actor has to spend his time trying to act with his effort’. The nice acting, yes, the sublime performance that impresses the audience arises from the individual efforts. And the fruitful effort will be endorsed and appreciated by the audience. yes, Fresh man, if you want to be a successful actor some day, you have to spend your time and effort ten times or twenty times harder than anyone else to do so. You must nucleate this life attitude in your daily life as an actor. Accordingly … Well, or … Now, I say a word for next generation in theater… You should keep ‘What life, what living and what man is ? ‘ in mind. For example, you start in actor job … Yes, when you once determine to become an actor , do it as an actor or die as an actor … What I mean by ‘to become an actor’ is NOT directly that becoming a star, earning big money, making great fortune, meaning to be rich. The act job is one of accepting orders business, the order duties. This is not to say that you get such a mean mind. It is that as it may be, if you want to become a ‘consummate professional actor’, you should hold personal belief and act up to your own unique way of life and lifestyle that you determined. Because if you defy your personal belief and way of your own life and lifestyle, your actor job will become just little harmless small-bills-earning amusements and/or silly ordered duties, otherwise will be great way to just kill and pass your time as the busy-work of your life. Yep, I think so …
Telop: Please send a message to ‘Mumeijyuku-bound test-takers’.
Nakadai: I have run this private actors’ school Mumeijyuku for forty years. En attendat, we can put a great variety of actors and actresses, marvelous actors and actresses out into the showbiz and theater world. Well, If you want to become and spend your life as an actor/actress … all the same … and if you enrolled in our Mumeijyuku … maybe, you set your destination to glow up your ‘talent’ in our school, and it is more than that, I expect that you set your sights higher and study every day’s basic lessons hard for three years. And same time, I want you to think about how to become a ‘professional actor/actress’.
Telop: Send a message to the audience who book the viewing “BARRYMORE”.
Nakadai: Well, I am turning 81 this year. Although, I play one-man performance with knuckling down by way of ‘challenging at my age, 81’ this time. Please come to see my act “BARRYMORE” on stage, thank you.
(Translated by Takashi Ikenouchi Sep.18, 2014 )
produced by Mumeijyuku ©2014
2014, Oct. 18 – Oct.22 at Noto-Ongaku-Do (Ishikwa pref.)
2014, Nov.3 – Nov.16 at TheaterTRAM (Setagaya-ku, Tokyo)
▼▽▼▽▼ 掲載日 ▼▽▼▽▼
September 18, 2014